THE GRIND

This is the first of our RLMMO debates to be published. For these articles, we take a specific MMO game mechanic and do our best to prove, once and for all, why your opinions are wrong. Everyone gets one shot to state their case, and can only return if they need to defend their position.

So, as you can tell, this week we'll be talking about grinding (Having to do the same thing over and over again for a reward). How much mindless slaughter is too much? At what point does it stop becoming fun and start becoming a grind?

Some say the levels should be drawn out, in order to make the game last longer. Then there's some who argue that games shouldn't take a year to "beat". Obviously, they'll never get the players to agree, but they need to keep their subscribers happy and they need them to stick around for as long as possible. So, what would you do?


Reachwind

Every single point of experience is too much.

The entire concept of gameplay being linked to character progression is too generic and too outdated to exist in modern games. We are at the point where game play could and should be so much more.

When you think about the greatest nights of playing your favorite MMO how many of those moments are beating that eight millionth bol, other than the fact that you finally finished a grind? Was that battle against the second bol worthwhile and rewarding to you as a player? If it was, I'm calling you a liar.

When I think about the greatest playing experiences I have had in MMOs, I think about PvP, group role-play, and interpersonal socializing. That is where gameplay should be centered, not on character skill building.


Efefia

In SWG, I just used to going about my business, exploring, etc. while getting XP along the way. Alright, I didn't get as much XP as someone spamming macro's at a lair, but I'm damn sure I had more fun. And, most importantly, it never felt like a grind. It was just a case of noticing that I'd got enough XP to train my next box. I'd guess there were a lot like me early on. Of course, as my time in-game drew on, there was nothing really left to see and changing professions became the usual macro spam on huurton lairs, or solo group missions for cash.

The main difference SWG had over all the other MMO's was the freedom for you to simply go off and do something else if you got bored. Now, the WoW grind on the other hand, is simply that. It's spoon fed content where you get led by hand along a set path, that's a real grind. For me it's the freedom a game gives you that makes the difference between earning XP while playing or "grinding".


Meparch

At this point in time in MMO development, grinding should never occur. Skills can be obtained through quests that tell and interesting and fun story, something lacking from MMOs. Oblivion did a nice job of this though.

Example: In Vanguard, the crafting is nothing but grinding. What they could have done instead was to do a quest for each object you learn how to craft. The more craftable objects you can make, the higher your level. You also get to learn about that object, the story behind it and how to make it. I was level fifteen crafter in Vanguard before I hit the forums and learned how to make a necklace. The game did not teach me how to do this, no quests explaining the different cuts for the jewels. Nothing like that. Just a click fest.


Rekrul

Grinding’s a cop-out invented by MMOs for inability to provide enjoyable gameplay. MMOs are supposedly about social experience. Why do they all, without exception eliminate the human, and turn them into NPCs?

Let's take crafting. Who cares how many items I've crafted? If I know how to get the materials, how to sell stuff, and how to supply in large, why do I need to craft for hours just to trigger some value in the game engine? Why, if I create a new character, am I suddenly an incompetent crafter, when I have two other "best-of" crafters already?

MMOs treat players as NPCs. They are assigned a level that ignores the player. This has a very positive bonus, though. No matter how unskilled someone is, if they grind long enough, they'll become the best. It's the epiphany of insult to intelligence. Mechanisms, designed to prevent anyone from using skill to achieve something. The only skills that do stand out, are those of exploiting early and exploiting often.

Is it a wonder then, that MMO communities are essentially horrible. That there's so much whining and crying, such completely asocial attitude? Not really, because these games can only appeal to such population.

Granted, there are pearls in these games, and there are ways to bypass the grind, either through power leveling, exploits, macros or eBay - all very good things for balanced players - but at very same time, these knew from day one what most realize at level 60 (or 70 with expansion) - namely, that the game sucks big time. That there's nothing to do, no achievements, no nothing.

This isn't an insult at every MMO player. It's just what MMOs will be remembered for. There will be no historic note at how boundaries of social entertainment were pushed. History will remember today's games as psychological experiment of how masses will do the dumbest of activities for mere promise of virtual reward.


lassiter

So, just to play devils advocate, you’re saying that the master carpenter, who has spent his life working to perfect his craft, making tables chairs by hand, isn’t grinding to learn his craft so he can be known as a master craftsmen and make the finest items for the highest price?

Or the guy who learns basic then COBOL, and other computer languages, just so in the future he can learn to work on mainframes? Without the background, you don’t have a future. And, personally, I dislike grinding, but it does make some sense.

…Just not killing one million bols.


Rekrul

Ok, you know COBOL. I'll teach you Java: Type the following in, ten thousand times:
public static void main(String[] args){}

After you're done, you'll be Java guru.

And while you're on it, improve your carpentry. Take ten thousand nails and use them to nail those 2x4's over there. After you're done, you'll be able to assemble rooftops, cabinets and insulated floors.

How exactly does crafting seven thousand eight hundred and twelve precision scopes teach you how to assemble E-11 enhanced carbine? And how does assembling five hundred and eighty of those teach you how to assemble grenade? And better yet: If you make a new character, where did the knowledge go? Wasn't grind intended to teach *you* - the player? No! It's a time sink.

And if I mastered (one way or another) a certain profession/skill/certification - why can't I transfer it to another character? If I learn something in RL, I get a certification. I don't need to grind alphabet, 1+1 and colors of the rainbow every time I join a new project, just so they know I'm literate and can calculate.

No, MMOs employing grind are flawed beyond fixing. Of course, some have managed to disguise it, others have minimized it but they are flawed.


Bissrok

Well, it's an MMORPG. You aren't learning how to craft anything, the character you're role-playing is. New person, new grind.

Still, I agree with you on everything else. The whole system is fundamentally flawed. These devs are just lazy, and they're exploiting some basic human flaws. People will put up with weeks, months, or years of monotonous tasks just to meet some arbitrary goal. It's a long, dull process and, once you get to the end, you're pretty much done. The only real "game" here consists of doing the same thing over and over again. But people just can't stop themselves from going on.

I mean, I see the devs reasoning. MMOs cost a fortune to develop and run. They want their subscribers to stick around for as long as possible. And, if the customers don't mind putting up with it, why not? Hell, it's not exactly a new concept. But, recent games have really been pushing that too far. That doesn't make your game "hardcore", it makes it f**king dull. There's ways to get people to stick around without putting off their reward indefinitely.

Look at SWG (Sorry, I know I'm the millionth person to reference Galaxies). In the beginning, most of the people I knew just played casually. I went to the cantina to heal my fatigue, sell hide, find a hunting ground, etcetera, and I'd end up picking up an instrument to kill the time. A few hours later, I'd still be talking and jammin' on my slitherhorn, but I'd have a handful of skill boxes finished. I master medic twice (twice!) on accident. It wasn't until the holocrons that things started to get ugly. You had to grind to get your reward. And you had to do it quickly if you wanted to brag about it. So, for me, that was the beginning of the end.


Vanive Talon

I think, in the end, developers are going to have to do away with visible levels again in place for skill based systems, like in Raph’s SWG system. I also think that these developers are going to have to get a bit more creative to keep players playing by providing enriching story lines, story arcs, ect.

If progression in the game is tied to the story arc itself, then you are forced to play it before you can reach uber levels. It’s almost like gating level advancement, but in a fun way. Gone will be those stupid leveling services since to level that way would mean missing out on a lot of character back story which may become important to you in your future within the game. No, your character, and you, will continue to advance. I would love to see your avatar’s persona play a huge role in advancement.


Obee

I think scaling content to character level, or group makeup, would help hide the grind. You should be able to take a quest at level five, have fun, and receive a reward based on your level. You should be able to take the same quest at level twenty-five and have the difficulty scale up to your current level and receive a reward that is appropriate for level twenty-five. If you take the quest as a group, the difficulty scales up as would the rewards.

Most of the reason folks grind is to level up so they can do the next quest to receive the new trinkets for that level, so they can grind to the next level. Grinding is grinding, whether it is for XP or skill points. As long as characters are going to need to increase in power based on stats or skills (can be gotten around if advancement relies on items I guess), grinding is going to be part of the game. The games that hide the grind are the ones that will be the most fun.


Geo

I would like to see a game with an XP and skill system that is not known to the players. There would be no XP bars and there would be no skills laid out in a nice flow chart. You would just go along playing and when you did something a certain amount of times or a certain way, you would level up or gain a skill and actually be surprised about it. Sure, over time a thottbot-type site would probably ruin the fun, but it would be cool in the beginning.


Obee

The only problem I have with that type of system is that I don't have the level of trust in game developers that would be required to enjoy it. In a lot of games, many systems are left unexplained with the excuse "We want the players to figure it out for themselves!". More often than not the players, not knowing how the system is supposed to be functioning, causes broken systems to remain broken. A number of things in SWG were left for the players to figure out, many of those things were broken from the start. One recent example was that some specials were not functioning after the NGE revamp and it wasn't until they started working on the expertise system that the newest developer at the time (Hanse) mentioned that he had fixed it. That was several months after it was implemented that it remained broken because nobody using it knew how it was supposed to work.

That type of system would be very enjoyable in a single player CRPG, because I have more faith that broken things would be fixed even if I didn't know they were broken.


Geo

I was assuming that the devs would be competent

Quoting: "EasterDurni" I'm weird, sometimes I sort of enjoy grinding. It's one of those soothing repetitious hand activities, like knitting, or arranging things on my desk. Something I can do while watching a movie or talking on the phone that doesn't require my full attention. ......

I feel the same way. As long as there are other means of leveling up, mindless grinding can be nice sometimes. I like a mix

One of my favourite martial arts movie Evil Cult has a bit amongst the dodgy subtitles where Jet Li's already master of shaolin stance and is given the secrets of another form of higher kung fu.

The scrolls say that it takes 20 or so years to learn it however a kungfu master can acquire the skills in 4 hours. Now to me this makes sense.

Carbineer can grind rifles in 3 hours or so however if he wants to learn tkm then that should be considerably longer.

thats my 2 cents for today. :-D

I think in most respects, it will never be a exact science or perfect formula however I think being honest to your consumers is a must... mistake or fail, you owe them that for investing in your product.

It comes down to what you as a "Company" expect from your product and what the "Consumer" expects from the product.

There is so many things that can be done and using the right system and sticking to it is a must... change for the good is one thing, change because you made to many mistakes is another.

I'm weird, sometimes I sort of enjoy grinding. It's one of those soothing repetitious hand activities, like knitting, or arranging things on my desk. Something I can do while watching a movie or talking on the phone that doesn't require my full attention.

I liked the hellish SWG jedi grind for the social factor because I did a lot of it after the patch where group viz was eliminated -- I don't think I could've stuck with it prepub9 (it took me forever to master my first two professions because I found the grind so boring). I've also enjoyed WoW grinding -- there's something cool about getting an extra number as a reward for the day's play (and WoW is much more likely to get me absorbed in the quest until I look up and realize "oh cool, another eight of these guys and I'm going to level!"

A lot of it is pure laziness though, forcing the players through hours of boring repetition to cover up the fact there's not much else to do.

Quoting: "milton1970" Grinding worked for the Karate Kid

There's a medical reason for that.

Marshal artists push their bones to the point of breaking. With every hit they cause microfractures which later heal. In this process, the bone tissue that's generated is much denser. Same process happens when breaking a bone in an accident. During the healing process, the bone will first regenerate beyond its original size, and later during the period of weeks or months weaken back to its normal strength.

Marshal artists have developed methods to bring this to their advantage.

Keep in mind, that there is no difference if this were done artificially through a mechanical device - the act of punching a bag or a barrel of water has nothing to do with it.

All you need is to stimulate your marrow to produce denser bone structure - how you achieve it is irrelevant.

Quoting: "Starnick" Heh I agree with Rekrul....and, his rant just gave me a wonderful little idea...

Me too.. that was quite insightful.

I'd always thought you should have worked up all the designs for crafting instead of grinding out one thing over and over. Make ten of everything.. find new schematics to learn new designs from. Trial and error. Makes more sense.

Heh I agree with Rekrul....and, his rant just gave me a wonderful little idea...

Very Interesting.
Like you say I also believe the grinding days are being phased out. Something I would like to see actually is a choice that leaves it all up to the players. Take grinding out of the equation as far as leveling would go, and allow players to grind toward something they want. Be it an item, ability, wearables, etc.
Grinding can becaome very dull and boring, especially when that is all you can do. I remember grinding in SWG at Agro OP for XP, and it was awuly long.
I believe that if a grind TOWARDS something besides a level would give players more individuality and as always if a player absolutely hates grinding then they would not be forced to do so. They could possibly purchase the rewards from other characters who have grinded.
But yes, grinding is not the best thing for an MMO but until a new kind of system is implemented it probably is the most efficient and easiest way to develop, not that that is what makes a good MMO.

There was a lot I wanted to keep in, but had to cut. Some people's posts just didn't work well in article form. Or I would have to completely re-write it, in order to correct the grammar and I wasn't sure if people would be okay with that. I also had to cut a lot of the posts that were one or two sentences.

Luckily, for the other debate (the gold farming one), people seemed to get what I was going for, and I got to fit a lot more people in.


EDIT: Damn. I keep noticing grammatical errors I've made. That always bugs the hell out of me.

Grinding worked for the Karate Kid

As a new player to MMO's on my first character on SWG it made sense. But once I got to the stage where I was regrinding professions it became a chore.

However it seems every other method would cheapen character progression. I just figured I'd accept the fact that I had to grind pistoleer yet again, so I'd find out what quality herbivore meats were spawning, go to said area/planet and loop pointblankarea1 at the lair while I grabbed a cup of tea and had a smoke or whatever.

Yes it was a cheap shortcut but since I'd grinded pistoleer about 3 times previously I couldn't see a problem with it since I wasn't standing in a popular spawn area with an attack macro running.

In short I'm a yes and no man toward the grind issue.